I am a New Englander, a Southerner, my own woman, Rex's daughter, a quivering mass of contradictions. Nothing here means any more or less than you want it to mean. This and a buck fifty will get you coffee. But it's me. And I really like that.
Is this the kind of democracy we are selling to Afghanistan and Iraq? Is this what our non-democratic Chinese brothers and sisters are supposed to model their society after?
I think that it is interesting what some of us consider acceptable in the ideological conversation.
Oh, YUCK. It looks like the same company markets to tasteless, tacky, mean-spirited people of all political stripes, too. What company *is* that? (I can see why you wouldn't want to advertise them.)
Oi...aren't humans a bunch of r-tards...*sighs softly* Because we look cool when we wear buttons that blatantly offend...because whenever you offend people and put your thoughts out in the open in a not very well put way that definitely promotes change and the good name of your party...
But isn't it great we live in a country where people are free to say whatever stupid thing they feel like spewing from their mouths? I'd rather live in a country where even idiots can speak freely, than in a country where no one can speak at all.
This is the kind of thing that DID scare me about this election. The ugly would come out front and center. But actually, I'm starting to think that's a good thing. NOT the sentiments of those who honestly believe these comments to be witty or true, but the fact that people we sometimes rely on THINK THIS WAY. Indirectly or directly, these kinds of people share the planet with us and it scares me that much of the time they hold much of the power.
Obama, if anyone, can hopefully bring that ignorance down a notch. It sickens me that people think like this, and I do hope that it sickens and frightens the majority of my Earthly co-habitants.
I want to be alive when race and gender are only relevant to Dr. visits. I don't know if that will happen.
well, you are better than that. i'm better than taht. your readers are better than that... and perhaps some others too... unfortunately we are a small percentage
zooooom, it will never come down to race and gender only applying at dr's offices. Like it or not, race isn't just used by some people for hatred, but it is used by others to get ahead. For example scholarships that you can't apply for if you're caucasion or a male, laws which require a certain number of non-caucasion employees and laws that make it more difficult to fire a non-caucasion than a caucasion...just to name a few.
Personally, I don't think race or gender should even be asked on scholarship information or school applications. Time people start getting by on their work ethic or proven need and not by race or gender. It's the only TRUE fair way.
I hope there will be a day when we can all just apply for that job and never ever think that there has been any form of discrimination other than who is better credentialed. Unfortunately we don't live in this utopia yet. Women are often capped well before male couterparts; being WASP male means never having to even wonder if you will get a job because you are not one or worrying that making waves will mean trouble for your whole family.
When there are no racial or gender biases in the workplace then there will be no need for affirming anyones rightfull place in the workplace.
fairness when it comes to race and gender is a long way off. while i would love to live in a society where applications don't ask about race or gender we just aren't there yet. non-whites and women are still judged on those parts of themselves they were born with, not by their abilities.
and while the imperfect system we have is sometimes abused far more abuses would happen without it in place.
Aisha ~ I can't believe you have been gone so long and are back for this one. Pobble Thoughts has been a less shower-inducing place, recently, I promise! ;)
Blacklok ~ The problem is, as you know, this isn't ideological conversation. This is pure division based on nothing but emotion. Ideological conversation ~ and disagreement ~ I welcome and embrace. This is just vituperation disguised as political thought.
CrackerLilo ~ Yeah, I think I'll stick to penguins. I'd rather not post the company here. Thanks for understanding. The in-the-dark-from-a-distance-if-you-squint nod of acceptance I will give them is at least they are equal opportunists.
Dreamer ~ I think there is something to be said for the shock value of an in-your-face statement. Those can open up conversation and dialogue. These buttons however are not designed to create discourse but discord. (And check your email.)
Krystal ~ ABSOLUTELY! Two different issues. One is the freedom to be stupid. The other is wishing so many of us weren't *this* stupid. As much as I loathe these buttons, I'll defend people's right to wear them. And then use my freedoms to speak out against them and discuss how divisive, ignorant and misleading they are.
Akarma ~ Yeah, pretty icky.
Zooom ~ Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's *this election* specific. Yes, the comments about Obama and McCain specifically obviously wouldn't be there if these two candidates weren't running. But the ones about all conservatives being fascists and all liberals having low i.q.s...yeah, those have nothing to do with *this* election.
Dennis Upkins ~ I have to believe we are. If we're not, what's the point of even trying? Why do you and I keep writing, keep speaking, keep listening, keep challenging ourselves, others and society? If the better isn't under there somewhere, what's the point?
Lovely Cats ~ In spite of what I just wrote to Dennis Upkins, I am beginning to wonder. Still, I stick with my idealism for a little longer.
Krystal ~ I would love to see gender and race not be an issue, as I think all of us would. It *is* the only true and fair way. Unfortunately, it is not yet the reality. Without these laws and programs you mention, women and people of color are consistently passed over for college acceptance, employment and promotion, even if they are equal in every way to the person who receives it. When faced with two deserving candidates ~ because eventually an application does turn into face to face ~ the societal default is still male and white. Since there is *nothing* a woman and/or a person of color can do to counter that, our laws must continue to do so.
Blacklok ~ Thanks.
Greg C ~ I have never found jokes that are rude, insulting or personally demeaning to be funny. We can have different senses of humor. Curious though ~ where do you find the truth in any of these?
Lovely Cats ~ Yes, and thank you for adding that. No system is without people who will take advantage of it. I do see and agree.
Shock value nothing! This is crude and uncalled for! And they are allowed to do it because of the cloudy and undefined or more abstracted and deranged thoughts and ideas of the the words freedom of speech....that's what it is...that's what all of this is...nothing but a ripped up and mutilated dreams and ideals...
IMHO we are better than this, at least the majority of us. And thanks for that.
I am a caucasian male near the end of a fifty year professional career, during which I worked for an African American manager and, near the end of which, my successor in my management job was a caucasian woman. Both probably better at the profession than I have been. If that exposes me to your prejudices, so be it.
It is better than the time when either or both of them would have been considered a chattel. Time was a female caucasian writer, to achieve success, had to take a masculine pen name and perhaps adopt masculine dress. Check your English Lit course.
And one of the reasons for that, aside from improving social consiousness, is that the society here has expressed itself through laws and regulations which, for example only, forbade me as a hiring manager from asking about age or marital status.
Hate speech doesn't go away quickly, and those who buy the products keep it alive.
I wish we were better than this. But the reason these buttons are out there is becaues there are too many people who agree with them. There's a good reason why stereotypes exist.
I like to think that I am better than that. I also believe that everyone I include in my life is better than that. Unfortunately, after spending time with my family on Sunday, I know that they are not. Some of them were cackling over all of those very Obama slogans. I just shook my head and wondered how on earth I could be related to these people.
I am glad we can live in a country where we can voice those opinions. However I am profoundly sad that people have those opinions in the first place. Just because we CAN say them, doesn't mean we SHOULD.
"Without these laws and programs you mention, women and people of color are consistently passed over for college acceptance, employment and promotion, even if they are equal in every way to the person who receives it."
I don't agree. I also don't agree with the male WASPS never worrying about getting a job (or keeping it)either. The news is quick to report on non-white males being looked over, but not so quick to report the other side of the situation.
A married white man who served 5 years 8 months in the Navy with incredible SAT's gets denied additional scholarship because the government's requirements that the school have more minorities. Even though the school wanted to award said monies to students of ANY race or gender who had EARNED it, the school ended up giving scholarship money to minority students who didn't even meet their GPA or SAT requirements simply because they were compelled by law due to race instead of hard work.
A high school girl who had partial scholarship to a great university lost out on a writing scholarship she absolutely needed to go to said university. There was a tie that was to be decided by interview. The interviewers gave the scholarship to the black male student because they felt that as a minority he needed the help more, even though they said the white girl gave a better interview (they told both of them this). The white girl should understand the plight of the black boy, and she smiled politely. The black boy already had more scholarship money and his parents had higher income. He apologized, but kept the money anyway. Went off to a a great school, didn't have to work. White girl ended up working her way through community college.
A white woman with senority and higher qualifications was denied her promotion because the company needed a minority in management. The black woman they hired couldn't do the job. She wasn't qualified. But she did help them meet their quota. The white woman was stuck doing part of her boss's job because she WAS qualified for the job, just too white for it.
A manager of a title company has to write up and keep explicit documentation on minority staff who are less than par and are not doing their work. He must give each one multiple chances for infractions. He can't fire them unless they've a thick file. WHY? The state he's in will file suit against the company for discrimination if he doesn't have so much back up. He can fire a white male for any reason without fear of recourse. A white man can be fired simply because "he isn't needed anymore." No further explanation required by law. No protection by law. He's white. (As a result he hired as few minorities as possible. His grand-daughter is black.)
These are cases I know personally to be true. The white woman being looked over was told me by a black woman who was furious over it. Said it made her look bad as a black woman.
An independant study was conducted a few years ago to find the most descriminated group in this country. Using who was protected, who wasn't, who was excluded from special funding (small business loans, school grants or scholarships, etc), the results were suprising (and dutifully not given the exposure it should have been). The middle class white male was determined to be the most descriminated group in this country.
Did you know that they are the ONLY group in this country that cannot have funds set up just for them? You can have scholarships and grants set up specifically to help any religion or minority, you can have scholarships or grants set up specifically for women. You cannot have a scholarship set up for white males. It is perfectly legal to set funds up for a non-white male.
Second group was white females. While there can be money set aside for just women, there can NOT be money just for white women, but you CAN have it set up for Hispanic or Black or Native American women, etc.
I have a multi-colored, multi-cultural family. I personally have Native American and Black, my husband's family has Hispanic and Black. I'd like to see a day when people say that yes, we ALL get discriminated against for various reasons. Wanna talk descrimination? I'm a natural blue-eyed blonde. I know descrimination. Brunettes get promoted over blondes all the time because they're taken more seriously. Blondes get sexually harrassed far more than brunettes.
Oh, and I'm stupid too. Didn't you know?
We've all had idiots treat us like dirt because of the way we look. I just think that we as a country have to decide if we're going to be color-blind or not and then go with it and roll with it and get over the "I have it worse than you do" mentality.
If we don't it pretty soon the chasm between the races will be so wide that no one will be able to cross it.
18 comments:
Ick--you are right. We are better than this. I need to take a shower now.
The high ground is always harder.
Is this the kind of democracy we are selling to Afghanistan and Iraq? Is this what our non-democratic Chinese brothers and sisters are supposed to model their society after?
I think that it is interesting what some of us consider acceptable in the ideological conversation.
Thanks.
Oh, YUCK. It looks like the same company markets to tasteless, tacky, mean-spirited people of all political stripes, too. What company *is* that? (I can see why you wouldn't want to advertise them.)
Lots to be discouraged about. You're right there.
But penguins are good.
Oi...aren't humans a bunch of r-tards...*sighs softly* Because we look cool when we wear buttons that blatantly offend...because whenever you offend people and put your thoughts out in the open in a not very well put way that definitely promotes change and the good name of your party...
But isn't it great we live in a country where people are free to say whatever stupid thing they feel like spewing from their mouths? I'd rather live in a country where even idiots can speak freely, than in a country where no one can speak at all.
Goodness gracious! Horrible....
This is the kind of thing that DID scare me about this election. The ugly would come out front and center. But actually, I'm starting to think that's a good thing. NOT the sentiments of those who honestly believe these comments to be witty or true, but the fact that people we sometimes rely on THINK THIS WAY. Indirectly or directly, these kinds of people share the planet with us and it scares me that much of the time they hold much of the power.
Obama, if anyone, can hopefully bring that ignorance down a notch. It sickens me that people think like this, and I do hope that it sickens and frightens the majority of my Earthly co-habitants.
I want to be alive when race and gender are only relevant to Dr. visits. I don't know if that will happen.
Are we really better than this though?
Look at the state of things. Should we really be surprised?
well, you are better than that. i'm better than taht. your readers are better than that... and perhaps some others too... unfortunately we are a small percentage
zooooom, it will never come down to race and gender only applying at dr's offices. Like it or not, race isn't just used by some people for hatred, but it is used by others to get ahead. For example scholarships that you can't apply for if you're caucasion or a male, laws which require a certain number of non-caucasion employees and laws that make it more difficult to fire a non-caucasion than a caucasion...just to name a few.
Personally, I don't think race or gender should even be asked on scholarship information or school applications. Time people start getting by on their work ethic or proven need and not by race or gender. It's the only TRUE fair way.
I hope there will be a day when we can all just apply for that job and never ever think that there has been any form of discrimination other than who is better credentialed.
Unfortunately we don't live in this utopia yet. Women are often capped well before male couterparts; being WASP male means never having to even wonder if you will get a job because you are not one or worrying that making waves will mean trouble for your whole family.
When there are no racial or gender biases in the workplace then there will be no need for affirming anyones rightfull place in the workplace.
Until that time all I have to say is; Oh well!
I love it. There is nothing like political humor. Especially when there is a little truth in everything.
fairness when it comes to race and gender is a long way off. while i would love to live in a society where applications don't ask about race or gender we just aren't there yet. non-whites and women are still judged on those parts of themselves they were born with, not by their abilities.
and while the imperfect system we have is sometimes abused far more abuses would happen without it in place.
just my 2 cents to add to pobble's $1.50.
Aisha ~ I can't believe you have been gone so long and are back for this one. Pobble Thoughts has been a less shower-inducing place, recently, I promise! ;)
Blacklok ~ The problem is, as you know, this isn't ideological conversation. This is pure division based on nothing but emotion. Ideological conversation ~ and disagreement ~ I welcome and embrace. This is just vituperation disguised as political thought.
CrackerLilo ~ Yeah, I think I'll stick to penguins. I'd rather not post the company here. Thanks for understanding. The in-the-dark-from-a-distance-if-you-squint nod of acceptance I will give them is at least they are equal opportunists.
Dreamer ~ I think there is something to be said for the shock value of an in-your-face statement. Those can open up conversation and dialogue. These buttons however are not designed to create discourse but discord. (And check your email.)
Krystal ~ ABSOLUTELY! Two different issues. One is the freedom to be stupid. The other is wishing so many of us weren't *this* stupid. As much as I loathe these buttons, I'll defend people's right to wear them. And then use my freedoms to speak out against them and discuss how divisive, ignorant and misleading they are.
Akarma ~ Yeah, pretty icky.
Zooom ~ Unfortunately, I'm not sure it's *this election* specific. Yes, the comments about Obama and McCain specifically obviously wouldn't be there if these two candidates weren't running. But the ones about all conservatives being fascists and all liberals having low i.q.s...yeah, those have nothing to do with *this* election.
Dennis Upkins ~ I have to believe we are. If we're not, what's the point of even trying? Why do you and I keep writing, keep speaking, keep listening, keep challenging ourselves, others and society? If the better isn't under there somewhere, what's the point?
Lovely Cats ~ In spite of what I just wrote to Dennis Upkins, I am beginning to wonder. Still, I stick with my idealism for a little longer.
Krystal ~ I would love to see gender and race not be an issue, as I think all of us would. It *is* the only true and fair way. Unfortunately, it is not yet the reality. Without these laws and programs you mention, women and people of color are consistently passed over for college acceptance, employment and promotion, even if they are equal in every way to the person who receives it. When faced with two deserving candidates ~ because eventually an application does turn into face to face ~ the societal default is still male and white. Since there is *nothing* a woman and/or a person of color can do to counter that, our laws must continue to do so.
Blacklok ~ Thanks.
Greg C ~ I have never found jokes that are rude, insulting or personally demeaning to be funny. We can have different senses of humor. Curious though ~ where do you find the truth in any of these?
Lovely Cats ~ Yes, and thank you for adding that. No system is without people who will take advantage of it. I do see and agree.
Shock value nothing! This is crude and uncalled for! And they are allowed to do it because of the cloudy and undefined or more abstracted and deranged thoughts and ideas of the the words freedom of speech....that's what it is...that's what all of this is...nothing but a ripped up and mutilated dreams and ideals...
IMHO we are better than this, at least the majority of us. And thanks for that.
I am a caucasian male near the end of a fifty year professional career, during which I worked for an African American manager and, near the end of which, my successor in my management job was a caucasian woman. Both probably better at the profession than I have been. If that exposes me to your prejudices, so be it.
It is better than the time when either or both of them would have been considered a chattel. Time was a female caucasian writer, to achieve success, had to take a masculine pen name and perhaps adopt masculine dress. Check your English Lit course.
And one of the reasons for that, aside from improving social consiousness, is that the society here has expressed itself through laws and regulations which, for example only, forbade me as a hiring manager from asking about age or marital status.
Hate speech doesn't go away quickly, and those who buy the products keep it alive.
I wish we were better than this. But the reason these buttons are out there is becaues there are too many people who agree with them. There's a good reason why stereotypes exist.
I like to think that I am better than that. I also believe that everyone I include in my life is better than that. Unfortunately, after spending time with my family on Sunday, I know that they are not. Some of them were cackling over all of those very Obama slogans. I just shook my head and wondered how on earth I could be related to these people.
I am glad we can live in a country where we can voice those opinions. However I am profoundly sad that people have those opinions in the first place. Just because we CAN say them, doesn't mean we SHOULD.
"Without these laws and programs you mention, women and people of color are consistently passed over for college acceptance, employment and promotion, even if they are equal in every way to the person who receives it."
I don't agree. I also don't agree with the male WASPS never worrying about getting a job (or keeping it)either. The news is quick to report on non-white males being looked over, but not so quick to report the other side of the situation.
A married white man who served 5 years 8 months in the Navy with incredible SAT's gets denied additional scholarship because the government's requirements that the school have more minorities. Even though the school wanted to award said monies to students of ANY race or gender who had EARNED it, the school ended up giving scholarship money to minority students who didn't even meet their GPA or SAT requirements simply because they were compelled by law due to race instead of hard work.
A high school girl who had partial scholarship to a great university lost out on a writing scholarship she absolutely needed to go to said university. There was a tie that was to be decided by interview. The interviewers gave the scholarship to the black male student because they felt that as a minority he needed the help more, even though they said the white girl gave a better interview (they told both of them this). The white girl should understand the plight of the black boy, and she smiled politely. The black boy already had more scholarship money and his parents had higher income. He apologized, but kept the money anyway. Went off to a a great school, didn't have to work. White girl ended up working her way through community college.
A white woman with senority and higher qualifications was denied her promotion because the company needed a minority in management. The black woman they hired couldn't do the job. She wasn't qualified. But she did help them meet their quota. The white woman was stuck doing part of her boss's job because she WAS qualified for the job, just too white for it.
A manager of a title company has to write up and keep explicit documentation on minority staff who are less than par and are not doing their work. He must give each one multiple chances for infractions. He can't fire them unless they've a thick file. WHY? The state he's in will file suit against the company for discrimination if he doesn't have so much back up. He can fire a white male for any reason without fear of recourse. A white man can be fired simply because "he isn't needed anymore." No further explanation required by law. No protection by law. He's white. (As a result he hired as few minorities as possible. His grand-daughter is black.)
These are cases I know personally to be true. The white woman being looked over was told me by a black woman who was furious over it. Said it made her look bad as a black woman.
An independant study was conducted a few years ago to find the most descriminated group in this country. Using who was protected, who wasn't, who was excluded from special funding (small business loans, school grants or scholarships, etc), the results were suprising (and dutifully not given the exposure it should have been). The middle class white male was determined to be the most descriminated group in this country.
Did you know that they are the ONLY group in this country that cannot have funds set up just for them? You can have scholarships and grants set up specifically to help any religion or minority, you can have scholarships or grants set up specifically for women. You cannot have a scholarship set up for white males. It is perfectly legal to set funds up for a non-white male.
Second group was white females. While there can be money set aside for just women, there can NOT be money just for white women, but you CAN have it set up for Hispanic or Black or Native American women, etc.
I have a multi-colored, multi-cultural family. I personally have Native American and Black, my husband's family has Hispanic and Black. I'd like to see a day when people say that yes, we ALL get discriminated against for various reasons. Wanna talk descrimination? I'm a natural blue-eyed blonde. I know descrimination. Brunettes get promoted over blondes all the time because they're taken more seriously. Blondes get sexually harrassed far more than brunettes.
Oh, and I'm stupid too. Didn't you know?
We've all had idiots treat us like dirt because of the way we look. I just think that we as a country have to decide if we're going to be color-blind or not and then go with it and roll with it and get over the "I have it worse than you do" mentality.
If we don't it pretty soon the chasm between the races will be so wide that no one will be able to cross it.
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