Some interesting conversations have taken place here at House of Pobble the last week. (Well, interesting conversations usually take place here but these specific ones have led to the Sunday Poll Question.) Lots of political talk interwoven with philosophical and moral and ethical dilemmas. Therefore...
Question ~ Is there an action, thought or concept that you are absolutely against...and yet can see the other side of the argument well enough to be grateful you don't have to make the decision about it?
Pobble Answer ~ Physical torture. I am absolutely against it. I find it abhorrent, unconscionable, and believe it is a line that must not be crossed. And yet...as a President or a leader, with the lives and safety of an entire nation on my shoulders... I don't know. The problem is it sometimes works. Sometimes, we get the answers we need. Again, I must reiterate: I Am Against Torture. Personally, I cannot see a situation where I could in good conscious approve of waterboarding. But I can see the other side of the argument. Even if I wish I couldn't. I am aware of the fact that I have the luxury of seeing it in black and white. Because as much as I am against it, if I truly believed what was standing between me and the safety of my Heart or Timber or the Princess Kitten or the Poo was what was in this person's head ... I very well might say get the information at any cost. I don't know. Is that what leaders (not just GWB but all leaders) are faced with, only multiplied by millions of lives? I don't know. And I'm very grateful I'm just little ol' me, the Pobble, out here in the civilian world, where I don't have to make the call and I don't have to know.
Your answer ~ (And please do give an answer, even if you decide to enter into a conversation about torture.)
Those are Pobble Thoughts. That and a buck fifty will get you coffee.
21 comments:
Abortion.
I am against it. Period. But my reasons are based solely on my religious beliefs and not everyone shares those beliefs. For instance, I believe life begins at conception, so abortion is murder. In the Jewish faith, however, a life isn't a life until it has a sould, which doesn't happen until it's drawn its first breath. A fetus isn't a life based on that scenario. Because it's not right for me, I won't do it. However, I am not arrogant enough to believe that my religious convictions are the only ones that matter. Each woman must make that choice based on her own religion and her own circumstances. I
Hey...the last part of it didn't post... what I said was:
I understand the concept of pro-life, but I also find it to be more pro-birth. Once the child is born, what kind of life does he or she have if the mother is unable or unwilling to care for him/her? There should be more of a support system in place for women who choose to give birth, but need help to raise the child too.
Wow, with the whole torture thing, I believe that if a criminal does something bad, they've chosen to give up their rights. No one made that choice but them and if the consequences of that choice are torture, to bad for them. But, I do see your point, and agree with you, if it came down to me making the decision and carrying out the task, I might feel differently. At the same time, if someone I love was at stake, I'd be more than happy to carry out torture and can't imagine I'd have any limits to what's not ok to do to that horrible person.
Jaded- I agree with you about our society needing more of a support system for mothers that may not have as many resources for others. If you've seen Michael Moore's Sicko, he talks about what resources they have in France for ALL mothers and its' great.
ok, jaded took my answer.
i am completely and totally pro-choice, but i can understand the other side because it just isn't a good thing. but until there are other options... i will remain pro-choice.
i am also completely opposed to word verifications that are over 5 letters long. however, i cannot see the other side of the arguement.
in case you are now wondering... yes, i have an 8 letter word verification i now have to type to post this.
I've been thinking about this and my answer is no. I am a VERY black and white person.
In order for me to believe something, I have to believe it 100%. I have no problem with the torture of bad guys to save innocent people. I have no problem with it, never have, and am extremely grateful to those who do it to help keep me and those I love safe and alive.
Maybe that makes me a cold person, but I just ask myself how I would feel if my child's life were at stake.
But I will tell you this much, they better be darned sure that the person being tortured is one of the bad guys before they do it though.
The death penalty. I totally understand why some nations put certain criminals to death. Ted Bundy pushed my belief in mercy and I can see the decision to end his life. But it's the wrong road to take. It brings out bad things in people and I ringed at the mob outside the prison cheering and carrying cradd signs that joked about barbecue the day of Bundy's execution. Surely there are holes deep enough to put the evil ones so they never get out.
However, I don't think torture is capable of getting results. Apparently, information gleaned from torture is very unreliable. It also puts you behind in the race to win the "hearts and minds" of the people you're trying to help as well as of the people at home when you get caught. It is ultimately self defeating and stains the souls of those that participate to boot. I'm against it and I disagree that it works
Torture is a good one, and I generally feel the same way. I am against it, however, I would never to say never if the situation was right (or wrong as the case may be).
The problem I have with allowing it a general rule is that you're not ONLY using it in extreme cases, but rather institutionalizing (sp?) it, which is a bad way to approach the issue.
It's a tough one, altough I think simply trying to see both sides of any issue will always lead to better arguments and resolutions.
Jaded ~ The only reason abortion isn't one of these issues for me is indeed my faith. If someone were to prove my belief of when human life begins incorrect, I would change my thoughts on it. It's one of the few cases where science would trump faith for me. And yes, a society where it is a nonissue should be the goal!
Graziella ~ Interesting that we are on different ends of the torture spectrum. But then, being on different ends and somehow ending up in the same place isn't unusual for us. ;)
Lovely Cats ~ Yep. (You and I have had this conversation often enough that there's just not that much more to say about it.) BOO on long word verifications (this one is 8, too, in order to post On My Own Blog, Dammit!)
Krystal ~ In some ways I envy you. Often, I wish I could be more black and white. It would make life easier, I think.
GOML! ~ The death penalty is another one of these issues for me. Emotionally, I'm all for it. Morally and ethically, I have a hard time getting my head around it. And the fact that it is not meted out with any kind of consistency here in the US makes it that much harder for me. I also agree with the points you made about torture ~ which is why I am against it. And we can agree to disagree about if it EVER works or not.
$$ ~ As with the death penalty, it seems torture is indeed the fall-back rather than the step taken in the exceptional circumstances. Like you, "never" is a word I try to avoid, even at times like this. And yes, the attempt to see both sides, even if it is unsuccessful, tends to at least bring about understanding.
Wolfgrrrl ~ I think it boils down to the emotional response v. the empathetic one, which is a tough road to choose. And bless you for even attempting the Sunday Poll Question first thing on a Monday morning. It's times like these that I recommend cookies.
Kimber, I understand about not wanting my child on the table either. Hopefully I'll have raise my child well enough to not be involved in said...Al Quida.
Torture is definately a last resort used only when they are CERTAIN the person has information that they are withholding. And as you, to save my child, pass me the pliers.
The death penalty came to mind, but GOML! beat me too it.
To preserve the life of someone that has raped, tortured and killed a child seems wrong to me, but to kill for it also seems wrong.
But I can easily see both sides of that ugly coin.
And I'll never have to make the choice and I'm glad.
cannibalism. meets all the requirements of the original question. (almost said 'meats'... yuck) and Thanks, Sister, for making me think hard enough to come up with THAT!! ew.
Brown shoes with a blue suit.
French manicures.
"Razzleberry" anything.
Lip liner without filler.
Pasties in strip clubs.
Turtle Wax and Duck Tape - call the ASPCA for God's sake.
~Non Sequitor
Krystal ~ It's the CERTAINTY that makes me uncomfortable because how can we ever be Certain?
Tai ~ Yep, glad we won't ever have to be in on the decision!
Crow ~ And what you don't eat, you can always feed down the disposal. ;)
Anonymous/Non Sequitor ~ I can't back you on this one as I cannot see both sides to the existence of "razzleberry."
Facilitating housing in the community for sex offenders when their jail time is up. Despite my profession, as a mother and taxpayer- and their need for housing- I get amazingly reactionary about meetings that want social service agencies to get involved in such stuff.
Akakarma ~ ooooo! That's a Good one! Yeah, glad I don't have to make the decision on that one, too!
First time poster here- like this post!
My issue: trying a child as an adult for a vilent crime.
one part of me is all- do the crime, do the time. but then I think, well, he's a kid, and his upbringing was crappy, he never had a chance. but THEN I think, hey- a lot of people had crappy upbringings... lock him up!
I am VERY glad I don't have to make this decision!
Just dropping by to say I enjoyed reading your blog...=)
-SOR
Jaded NYer ~ Oh yeah, another good one! Because I remember how stupid kids can be ~ and know how stupid they don't have to be. Hm...
SOR ~ Glad to see you here! Feel free to stop by anytime!
Well, my first two were already taken, so I'll go with a weird one: Burial. The embalmed and dressed-up with no place to go in an obscenely ornate casket kind. I think we should all literally follow "ashes to ashes, dust to dust" and become part of the earth again when we die. I think cemeteries are a morbid waste of space that no one will visit in a few generations, anyway. When's the last time anyone in your family tromped to the graveyard to see the great-grandparents?
But, I can also recognize the importance of ritual and tradition in the grieving process. Also, letting go is so difficult that graveside visits provide solace for hurting loved ones. And old cemeteries have been an invaluable tool for me in genealogical research.
But just scatter my ashed to the wind, baby.
D-Man ~ I'm with you on the cremation, thing. And I have been so very grateful for funeral services, as well. (For the record, I have been to my VERY out of the way great-grandparents' graves but I'm an abberation, I acknowledge.) And I'm curious to know what your "first two" were!
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